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  • "SunnyBee" started this thread

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Tuesday, November 2nd 2010, 9:38am

Natural killer cell blood test results - inconclusive - please help.

Hi girls

I was wondering if anybody could help me please.



I had the natural killer cell blood test done and received the results today. But it is a bit inconclusive and it feels like they are leaving the decision to me if I want the treatment or not.



The letter says:“I have received back your natural killer cell blood test. This shows a very slight increase in your lymphocyte total NK percentage at 10.6% when normal range is less than 10%. The other value we assess is total NKDC69 percentage which for you is 0.86% and it should be less than 1% so this is normal. It is very unusual for immune problems to cause a problem with implantation but obviously in the presence of a positive result you may wish to consider having treatment with Heparin, Aspirin and Steroids as detailed in the patient information leaflet I have sent you today.”



Well, what do I do? Is the 10.6% too much of concern? Shall I be asking for the treatment? Is there anybody who had the same test done? What were your results? What is the real range of those numbers? What is the perfect result and what is really bad?



Please could somebody advise?

Thank you.


MY DIARY

April'10-IVF 4 eggs-none fertilised
Sep'10-ICSI 2 eggs,1 fertilised 7/10/10 BFN
Jan'11-ICSI 13 eggs,9 fertilsed, 2x8 cells put back - 4/2/11 BFN
May'11-ICSI 14 eggs,9 fertilised - none made it to day 5
Aug'11-DE,Czech Rep 13/8 2 blasts trans,1 frostie - :BFP:
Scan 8/9/11,3/10/11,20/10/11,15/12/11,6/1/12,2/2/12, 2/3/12, 5/4/12 bab10 bab11
Twins arrived 8/4/12 both healthy

BraveGirl

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  • "BraveGirl" is no longer a member of FZ

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Tuesday, November 2nd 2010, 9:45am

hi there

I have had a quick look at my Chicago level 2 results. My NK cells 50:1 were 13.9% and they like to see less than 15% so that in itself was not an issue, the problem though was that they then did not halve on the 25:1 and 12.5:1 which means they had strong killing power.

My CD3 was 85.8% (should not be more than 85) and my CD19 was 14.8 (should not be more than 10).

So get a full picture we really need to see all your results. My TNF cells were also raised. what were yours? We need a bit more information from you.

I was treated with steroids, intralipids and clexane (rather than aspirin as aspirin crosses the placenta). If your clinic is willing to treat you with these drugs I would certainly take them.
IVF 1 :BFP: baby5 in heaven 6 weeks
IVF 5 :BFP: Immune protocol Care Sheffield
Oscar Miles arrived 15 April 2011 weighing 6lbs 14oz
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  • "SunnyBee" started this thread

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Tuesday, November 2nd 2010, 10:01am

Thank you BraveGirl.

They did not send me a copy of the complete results, the letter is all I have at the moment. I will try to send them an email and ask for it.

Thanks XXX


MY DIARY

April'10-IVF 4 eggs-none fertilised
Sep'10-ICSI 2 eggs,1 fertilised 7/10/10 BFN
Jan'11-ICSI 13 eggs,9 fertilsed, 2x8 cells put back - 4/2/11 BFN
May'11-ICSI 14 eggs,9 fertilised - none made it to day 5
Aug'11-DE,Czech Rep 13/8 2 blasts trans,1 frostie - :BFP:
Scan 8/9/11,3/10/11,20/10/11,15/12/11,6/1/12,2/2/12, 2/3/12, 5/4/12 bab10 bab11
Twins arrived 8/4/12 both healthy

  • "SunnyBee" started this thread

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Friday, November 5th 2010, 11:30am

I managed to get hold of the original results but I don't think it says more than the letter did. It reads:



SPECIAL PATHOLOGY

CD69 - CD56 - CD16



NATURAL KILLER CELLS COUNT

------------------------------------

Lymphocyte count [10^9/L] : 1.699

Total NK Cell Absolute count [10^6/L] : 180.1

[Lymphocytes] Total NK [%] : 10.6%

Normal range [%] : Less than 10%



NK [dim] Absolute count [10^6/L] : 165.2

[Total NK] NK [dim] [%] : 91.7 %

NH [brigth] Absolute Count [10^6 / L] : 14.96

[Total NK] NK [brigth] [%] : 8.3%

--------------------------------------------

Activation Marke of Natural Killer Cells

-----------------------------------------------

Total NK CD69 Absolute Count [10^6/L] : 1.55

Total NK CD69 [%] : 0.86%

Normal range [%] : Less than 1%



NK [dim] CD69 Absolute Count [10^6 / L] : 1.24

[Total NK] NK [dim] CD69 [%] : 0.69%

NK [brigth] CD69 Absolute Count [10^6/L] : 0.31

[Total NK] NK [bright] CD69 [%] : 0.17%

---------------------------------------------------------

Does it make any sense to any of you who have been through the immunology testing? Shall I be asking for the treatment with these results?

Thanks girls.


MY DIARY

April'10-IVF 4 eggs-none fertilised
Sep'10-ICSI 2 eggs,1 fertilised 7/10/10 BFN
Jan'11-ICSI 13 eggs,9 fertilsed, 2x8 cells put back - 4/2/11 BFN
May'11-ICSI 14 eggs,9 fertilised - none made it to day 5
Aug'11-DE,Czech Rep 13/8 2 blasts trans,1 frostie - :BFP:
Scan 8/9/11,3/10/11,20/10/11,15/12/11,6/1/12,2/2/12, 2/3/12, 5/4/12 bab10 bab11
Twins arrived 8/4/12 both healthy

ruthie

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Friday, November 5th 2010, 11:58am

Hi honey,

part of the problem is that this is just an NK cell screen. It's not the full Chicago tests and there are lots of other things that can be wrong. To put it in context, I've had my NK cells tested 6 times now and they have always been normal. However, I have v high cytokines (another test that is part of the Chicago tests) and have had 3 BFNs even when on immune tx, partly because of the difficulty of interpreting blood results alone.
I now have tx for high NK cells (steroids and intralipids), despite the fact that my NK cells are always normal and despite the fact that the cytokine problem has been treated as well.

Who arranged the tests for you?

My opinion would be that if you go down the road of immune testing, you need to see a clinician who can properly interpret the results for you, in the context of your particular problems. Noone on here can interpret the results for you, as it needs to be done with a full doctor's understanding and in the context of your other reproductive problems.
There's a saying that I use all the time with clients at work. We treat the patient, not the blood results. So often I see cases where the blood results would suggest that the animal has serious health problems, but actually it's walking around perfectly happy. The corollary to that would be a patient like me who on paper has everything under control immune wise but has still had BFNs on tx, hence now giving me drugs that my blood results don't indicate. All we can do on here is use our own experience, which really bears no relation to what you are going through, or qoute you bits from Beer's book. None of that is a substitute for advice from a doctor who really knows what they are talking about.

I think either you need to see an immune doctor and have a full Chicago screen, then take recommendations based on that, or go with what your current doctor is suggesting, which is to give you a fair few of the immune meds anyway and hope that that does the job.

Hope that makes sense.

xxx

  • "SunnyBee" started this thread

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Friday, November 5th 2010, 2:13pm

Thanks Ruthie

this test has been arranged through the clinic in Southampton. At my last consultation I have mentioned immunology and the consultant said that they do the testing but did not mentioned that they are different levels / types of tests. She only talked about the Natural Killer blood cell test. It cost about £300 so I don't know how it compares with prices for the other immune tests and if this is just cheep and cheerfull test but does not really tell you much ;o(.

I don't know if they are able to do, what you call, the Chicago test, I will have to ask. If they don't though, and I can't get it done before January, do you think I should go with the treatment they are suggesting. Are the steroids a good idea?

xxx


MY DIARY

April'10-IVF 4 eggs-none fertilised
Sep'10-ICSI 2 eggs,1 fertilised 7/10/10 BFN
Jan'11-ICSI 13 eggs,9 fertilsed, 2x8 cells put back - 4/2/11 BFN
May'11-ICSI 14 eggs,9 fertilised - none made it to day 5
Aug'11-DE,Czech Rep 13/8 2 blasts trans,1 frostie - :BFP:
Scan 8/9/11,3/10/11,20/10/11,15/12/11,6/1/12,2/2/12, 2/3/12, 5/4/12 bab10 bab11
Twins arrived 8/4/12 both healthy

ruthie

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Friday, November 5th 2010, 3:59pm

I would definitely go with what they are suggesting. The clexane and aspirin are both perfectly safe in the first trimester and there are loads of studies confirming that. The steroids are more controversial as they do have side effects. Part of the problem is that implantation is an inflammatory process and steroids are anti inflammatories so in theory steroids could affect implantation. Having said that there are a few clinics now that use low dose steroids routinely after transfer. Exeter are one of them and i spoke to one of the docs there a few months ago. She said that they haven't got enough results yet to be sure but it looks like it has slightly increased their success rates. It certainly hasn't reduced them. In view of the mildly elevated NK cells I think most immune clinics would definitely stick you on steroids. Because of the poss side effects my clinic are v anti a one size fits all approach to immunology and don't like clinics that just suggest clexane/aspirin/steroids in a sort of see what happens way. However they would always put you on pred or dexa with NK results like that, and that should be sufficient to bring them down.

If you go for the full Chicago tests they cost about £750 for the full screen. I presume your clinic could arrange it but again, without a doctor who really knows what they are talking about to interpret them and make treatment recommendations, you're not really any better off.

I think if your clinic are happy to do what they've currently suggested, i'd go with it.

xxxx

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Tuesday, November 9th 2010, 12:57pm

Ruthie

Thank you very much for your response.

What does "pred or dexa" stands for? Is that a type of steroids?



Ruthie even if I had the Chicago test done - do you know if the treatment for what ever they find would be the same - meaning would I still get treated with Steroids, Aspirin and Heparin? Or are there other types of treatment then steroids?



Thank you and have a great day. high5

xxx


MY DIARY

April'10-IVF 4 eggs-none fertilised
Sep'10-ICSI 2 eggs,1 fertilised 7/10/10 BFN
Jan'11-ICSI 13 eggs,9 fertilsed, 2x8 cells put back - 4/2/11 BFN
May'11-ICSI 14 eggs,9 fertilised - none made it to day 5
Aug'11-DE,Czech Rep 13/8 2 blasts trans,1 frostie - :BFP:
Scan 8/9/11,3/10/11,20/10/11,15/12/11,6/1/12,2/2/12, 2/3/12, 5/4/12 bab10 bab11
Twins arrived 8/4/12 both healthy

BraveGirl

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Tuesday, November 9th 2010, 1:07pm

pred - prednisolone which is a steroid
dexa - dexamathasone (sp) also a steroid

The chicago tests wouldgive a better picture and you might also be prescriped Humira, Intralipids, IVIG, (LIT - not in this country though). This link might help.

link

also you should get Dr Beers book:

book

and read the immine section on this site:

immunes
IVF 1 :BFP: baby5 in heaven 6 weeks
IVF 5 :BFP: Immune protocol Care Sheffield
Oscar Miles arrived 15 April 2011 weighing 6lbs 14oz
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ruthie

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Tuesday, November 9th 2010, 1:14pm

You can have LIT in the UK now, Dr Gorgy has got a licence and Jenine is having it at the minute.
Basically as BG says there are loads of other meds you can have in all different combinations. If having the Chicago tests is financially an option I would have the whole lot done and get a proper immune opinion from a clinic who do a lot of immune stuff, but if for any reason you can't then I would go with what your clinic have currently suggested.

I tend to feel that if you're going down the immune route you may as well do it thoroughly. Chatterbox had a sort of half immune approach on her last cycle and is now going for a full immune tx at CARE as for her the half approach didn't work out.
It doesn't mean it won't for others though. The whole problem is that none of this is proven so no one can really tell you how significant any of it is.

xxx

chatterbox

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Tuesday, November 9th 2010, 4:55pm

Did I hear my name mentioned.... ? biggrin2

Yep, tis true I prescribed myself a half ar$ed approach last time which got me further than ever before but it wasn't enough to ensure a healthy pg. I would definitely support Ruthie's comments on there isn't a one size fits all (although it may seem like it!) because you need to know that the tx protocol you're on has been thought about by someone who knows.

And even then it may take more than one stab at it. I'm not having LIT although I'm LAD -ve (as me and DH too similar anyway). But this is my only teensy worry - though IL's should sort that out too - in theory.

xxx

Me 40 DH 35 TTC 10yr
peritoneal mesothelioma, cystectomy 97 & 00
peritonectomy, lost both tubes & most of left ovary Aug 07


Dec 07 BFP b/ov m/c 9.6wk
July 08 BFN
Dec 08 BFP b/ov m/c 9.6wk

July 09 BFN
Nov 09 BFP 2 x sacs 1 b/o 1 no hrtbt m/c 9.2wk
May10 BFP at 8+4 m/mc @10wk scan ERPC

Found: High NK cells, DQ Alpha match, LAD neg & PAI-1 pos...

NOV 2010 - Immune IVF at CARE Manchester
:BFP: [zx076] :girl: born 25/8/11

OCT 2012 - Immune IVF at CARE Manchester
:BFP: [zx076] :boy: born 24/6/13

  • "SunnyBee" started this thread

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Wednesday, November 10th 2010, 12:51pm

Hi Girls

thank you very much for all the information.

I will try to do a bit more reading up from the links you sent be before I make a final decision, but at the moment, I think I will go with what the clinic is suggesting. My biggest issue is not producing enough eggs even that my AMH is good, so if we don't get any eggs this time around, we might have to consider donor ;o( and that would probably mean going abroad.



Thank you and good luck in your treatments. xfingers


MY DIARY

April'10-IVF 4 eggs-none fertilised
Sep'10-ICSI 2 eggs,1 fertilised 7/10/10 BFN
Jan'11-ICSI 13 eggs,9 fertilsed, 2x8 cells put back - 4/2/11 BFN
May'11-ICSI 14 eggs,9 fertilised - none made it to day 5
Aug'11-DE,Czech Rep 13/8 2 blasts trans,1 frostie - :BFP:
Scan 8/9/11,3/10/11,20/10/11,15/12/11,6/1/12,2/2/12, 2/3/12, 5/4/12 bab10 bab11
Twins arrived 8/4/12 both healthy

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Reg: Jun 25th 2010

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Wednesday, November 10th 2010, 2:59pm

Endo Biopsy Result Help Please

Hello

I hope it's ok to pop in here for help.. So nice to see your news Ruthie! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :winking:

Results include: 0 CD57+ cells 3-4 FoxP3+ cells identified/high power field


Comment: No CD57 cells are identified. FoxP3+cells are adequate suggesting adequate stromal regulatory activity. Positive and negative control sections have been evaluated demonstrating appropriate tissue reactivity with the CD57 monoclonal antibody.






It sounds positive to me, does anyone know if it is? thinkthink thinkthink

ruthie

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Wednesday, November 10th 2010, 4:11pm

Hi SugarBabyLove

don't know anything about the biopsies I'm afraid but my reading of that would be that they didn't find any NK cells and that has got to be good!
Are you going to see your cons about the results?

xxx

Hope2608

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Monday, December 31st 2012, 4:34pm

CD69 NK cells test

Hi sunny bee,

U am new to this site and found your thread interesting as i have a very similar cd69 test to your results and I wondered whether you proceeded with treatment?

Mine is 10.9% and I know it should be less than 10% to be normal.

Any advice you can give me on your experience would be greatly received.

Many thanks
Hope2608

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