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  • "Glitzy" started this thread

Posts: 3,006

Reg: Oct 4th 2005

Location: Scotland

Children: Max born March 07 - thanks to frozen embryo transfer, our little miracle

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1

Tuesday, September 18th 2007, 7:02pm

Anyone got knowledge of NK cells?

My lovely friend has just found out that she has NK cells - she has had 3 miscarriages in the last 5 years all at 6weeks - it has taken them to that to test her for this. All other tests have come back normal just this one problem. Could this be the reason she has miscarried each time at the same stage? Also - is there treatment for it should she become pregnant again?

Many Thanks
H x


5 x ICSI b.f.n
1 x FET resulting in my gorgeous son born 2007

  • "spangle" is no longer a member of FZ

Posts: 269

Reg: Nov 14th 2005

Location: Kent

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2

Tuesday, September 18th 2007, 7:30pm

i have the same problem, she will need either Ivig or a humira injection, i had the humora and it cost about £750 my problem now is that i just cant get pg so who knows, she may even get away with just steroids all depends on what clinic she is under and their protocol, everyone is different
10 IVF's 4 FET
4 PG all ended in m/c
Mummy to 5 angels

kski

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Posts: 959

Reg: Mar 26th 2006

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3

Wednesday, September 19th 2007, 8:58am

Agree with spangle -

the Nk test is not normally administered through the NHS - so I assume she has requested it !

There is a lot of scepticism in the IVF world - as it is an American led procedure pioneered inthe UK by Mr T at ARGC in London -

However - There are a number of people on here for whom it has worked -

Pm me if you want more specific information

k
DAD to twins

kar1

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4

Wednesday, September 19th 2007, 9:48am

kski

i wouldn't mind more info, can you get nk tests done on the nhs?
TTC 12 years

2 early losses

lots of ops and tx

both tubes removed

5th fresh short protocol
:BFP:

Tyler May born 5/5/2010 by emergency c section. Tyler is our sunshine

  • "Glitzy" started this thread

Posts: 3,006

Reg: Oct 4th 2005

Location: Scotland

Children: Max born March 07 - thanks to frozen embryo transfer, our little miracle

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5

Wednesday, September 19th 2007, 9:49am

Thanks guys - the tests were done as routine by her clinic after she had a 3rd miscarriage (all natural pregnancies) but she had been referred to a fertility clinic as it was taking her so long to concieve each time and she is slightly older. Any info would be much appreciated xxx


5 x ICSI b.f.n
1 x FET resulting in my gorgeous son born 2007

kski

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Reg: Mar 26th 2006

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6

Wednesday, September 19th 2007, 11:18am

IVIG immunology -long post !

The use of IVIG was pioneered by the Sher clinics in USa and bought to the Uk by Mr Taranisi at ARGC _

There is some dispute over its effectiveness -
but to summarise - It works on the principlle that the uterine environmen may be hostile to the embryo - similar to the way a body may reject a kidney - so Ladies with a heightened Inmmune system - Thyroid problems and others mentioned below - may find certain NKs higher - hence the embryo cannot establish.

The tests are performed in Chicago - and they screen a range of about 15 factors - as shown - even within NKs - you have differnet derivatives of cells -

The treatment is to use an Intravenus Immuno globulin drip which dilutes the NK cells - and in theory makes you less likely to reject the embryo -

One can question the safety - but the proceedure has been used intransplants for 30 years now -
Equally - ( anita Roddick ) one could question the safety of Blood transfusions - but that goes unremarked

I have included alink -

Given the frontier treatment - I doubt whether a funding body would underwrite treatment for an elective IVF cycle -
It is hard enough to get them to pay for normal IVF ....

Hope this helps

k




MIL offers state of the art immunologic testing, which has shown to be useful in the diagnosis and management of recurrent pregnancy loss in affected couples. Such tests include

antiphospholipid antibody (APA) panel,
antinuclear antibody (ANA) panel,
antithyroid antibody panel,
embryotoxicity assay,
reproductive immunophenotype,
natural killer (NK) cell assay,
immunoglobulin panel,
anti-IgA,
coagulation assays,
lupus-like anticoagulant,
activated partial thromboplastin time,
protime,
homocystinemia,
antithrombin III,
factor V von Leiden
inhibin B
All tests can be obtained through MIL by calling (312) 274-1928.

Top
Treatment for Recurrent Miscarriage
Treatment for repeat pregnancy loss depends on the underlying causes. When an immunologic cause of recurrent miscarriage is diagnosed, immunotherapy is available through SIRM. Treatments include

aspirin
heparin
prednisone
IVIg
intralipid
The first controlled clinical trial in the United States was performed using intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIg) for the treatment of recurrent miscarriage. The results of that clinical trial established the efficacy of IVIg for treatment of some cases of recurrent pregnancy loss. More than 300 pregnancies have thus far been established with this treatment. IVIg has been successfully used for treatment of recurrent miscarriage associated with autoantibodies, an elevated percentage of circulating natural killer cells and embryotoxins, as well as for unexplained recurrent pregnancy loss.

http://www.haveababy.com/infertility/ind…=local&page=rpl

External link not endorsed by FZ -
DAD to twins

  • "Glitzy" started this thread

Posts: 3,006

Reg: Oct 4th 2005

Location: Scotland

Children: Max born March 07 - thanks to frozen embryo transfer, our little miracle

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7

Wednesday, September 19th 2007, 2:38pm

Thanks for the info Kski - I will forward it on to my friend


5 x ICSI b.f.n
1 x FET resulting in my gorgeous son born 2007

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Reg: May 20th 2007

Location: London

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8

Sunday, September 30th 2007, 9:23pm

Hi Glitzy

Tell your friend to buy "is your body baby friendly" by Dr Beer. Really interesting easy to understand book regarding immune/nk cell problems.
I'm currently taking steroids for slightly raised nk cells and agree with Kski. If the Prednisolone i'm taking doesn't do the trick I'll be considering IVIG. Quite worried about that though as I don't know of anyone who's needed it.

Hope this helps x

  • "Glitzy" started this thread

Posts: 3,006

Reg: Oct 4th 2005

Location: Scotland

Children: Max born March 07 - thanks to frozen embryo transfer, our little miracle

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9

Monday, October 1st 2007, 7:39pm

Thanks Jess I will pass that on to her. Good luck yourself xx


5 x ICSI b.f.n
1 x FET resulting in my gorgeous son born 2007

yk105825

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Location: Enfield, London

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10

Wednesday, April 23rd 2008, 11:18am

RE: IVIG immunology -long post !

Hi

Ive just had NK cells assay done prior to IVF treatment. I have had 3 previous failed cycles. I noticed on my results sheet CD3% (whatever that means) came back higher than the expected parameters. This has not yet been dicsussed with my doctor. Do you know what this means?

Mrs M

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Reg: Oct 10th 2006

Location: Wiltshire

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11

Wednesday, April 23rd 2008, 11:34am

Hi Glitzy

I recently bought the Dr Beer book after talking to Kara about this - am happy to lend it to your friend if it would help? If so PM me

xxx

------------------------------
Me 33 DH 40, TTC 7+ yrs, unexplained infertility
3 x ICSI and 3 x natural FET with assisted hatching - all BFN :(
Our treatment journey has now ended

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Location: Surrey

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12

Wednesday, April 23rd 2008, 1:30pm

Just wanted to say that if it is only high NK cells that doesn't necessarily mean she needs IVIG transfusions which are incredibly expensive. Transfusions are usually needed for other immune issues (all in Dr Beer Book).

NK Cells are treated with Prednisalone (steroids). I know someone who has high NK cells, had 3 m/c's and was taking her time to conceive, like your friend.

She was treated with Prednisalone (25mg a day until week 12) and she went to full term and has a baby now.

I am about to register / embark with Dr Beer clinic in the USA to look at other issues, if you have any questions then give me a shout.
TTC naturally, five miscarriages 2006-2009, Immune issues

BLONDIE'S IMMUNOLOGY DIARY

Posts: 176

Reg: Jul 5th 2006

Location: Surrey

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13

Wednesday, May 28th 2008, 10:41am

I was diagnosed with elevated NK Cells (also have PCOS) after have 3 m/c. I took prednisalone and aspirin and now have a beautiful baby girl. I was seen at Epsom Hospital by Mr Shehata who has done a lot of research in this area. I have posted the link below.

Hope this helps. xx

http://www.miscarriageclinic.co.uk/profile.html

===================================
Me 37 DH 44

2000-2006 3 missed m/c, PCOS, endo
Feb07 high-level NKCells found - start Prednisalone
Apr07 :BFP: I[zx076]Mr Shehata


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Reg: Dec 30th 2007

Location: South London

Children: Was Lister

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14

Wednesday, May 28th 2008, 9:24pm

I've just had my results back from full NK test (CD69) and it came back as 25% killer activation which was above normal.

I've not yet see the full report and will probably discuss this in more detail with our consultant in due course. We've decided to opt for the steroids (brings activation down to 14% I've told) this time round (3 ICSI) and spend some time looking at IVIg if we're not successful.

It seems to me that IVIg is starting to become an active area for some clinic going on the number of questions recently asked about this procedure/theory.




4 ICSI - all BFN
Poor responder (6 eggs max on left ovary only)
High NK cells
Considering Egg Donation

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Location: Surrey

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15

Thursday, May 29th 2008, 8:42am

Hi Pickles

Obviously your consultant will discuss with you what they think will be the best course of action but I believe that steroids are usually the first option / choice. IVIG is used here in the UK but not on the NHS and is very expensive, I believe £1000-2000 each time.

My consultant who uses the steroid programme will not consider IVIG until a woman has tried the steroid programme at least a few times. He has managed to get IVIG for one woman on the NHS after a big battle and after numerous miscarriages this lady did have a baby using the IVIG. It will really depend on your consultant. The whole immunological area is still so new and in research stages.

Good luck at your appointment.
TTC naturally, five miscarriages 2006-2009, Immune issues

BLONDIE'S IMMUNOLOGY DIARY

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Reg: Oct 2nd 2007

Location: Notinghamshire

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16

Saturday, May 31st 2008, 10:04am

I've just had Ivig a few weeks ago.

I already had my BFP, and it was originally twins, bit we lost one of them, despite being on steroids and they asked me to do the NK cells test as I have a thyroid condidition.

The tests came back borderline, but the clinic suggested I have the Ivig as they had used it so often in the past and were confident it would help keep DJ safe, and of course, I wasnt going to argue.

The costs depend on the dose you need, I had 2 drips, and it took about 5 hours in total, totally painless, just boring!!! Costs were £1500 for the ivig and £325 for the bloods. Had another blood essay done last week, and all seems fine, so hoping not to have another session - we're skint!!!!

But very happy and glad we took every opportunity to ensure DJ is safe and well.

I know Ivig is still not well understood, but am convinec in time it'ss become a standard practice in the way blastocyst transfers are now

Good luck, sorry for the long post

C
xx
Cathie

Proud mum to Eric after 3 years TCC!!!

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17

Saturday, May 31st 2008, 12:04pm

Wow 5hrs is a long time to be sitting around but worth it in the end Cathie.

I wonder how many women on this site have had IVIg and gone on to conceive?

P




4 ICSI - all BFN
Poor responder (6 eggs max on left ovary only)
High NK cells
Considering Egg Donation

Posts: 666

Reg: May 28th 2008

Location: Falkirk, Scotland

Children: one stepson ..& one miraculous wee boy!!!!!!!

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18

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 11:30am

Nooo!! Wait!!! :smile:

You don't have to go through all that private paying business for a NK Cell test!!!

I'm having it done for free!!

Its seems to me that if you go privately, it's a blood test and they kind of use the level of these cells in your blood as a guide on how many is in your uterus & then you have this IVIG blood transfusion thingy.

...but as long as you meet her criteria you can see Dr Quenby at the Liverpool Womans Hospital on the NHS. She's doing research into this very problem. Except she takes a biopsy of your uterus - so it's a more accurate count - and then simply gives you an everyday steroid for 12 weeks to suppress those little Cells from kicking out your wee foetus from it's new home!

I've put a post in the General Fertility discussion section called NKCells: One Stop Shop Info ..or something like that.. with some links to websires of use & interest!

I thought I'd try and spread the word a wee bit coz, it's something that we all seem a bit in the dark about - and it seems such a simple solution and basic problem!

Hope it helps
Good luck to one and all!
Vanessa x


10 Losses:
Aug07@11wks
Oct07 Dec07 Mar08 & Apr08 - biochemical pregs
June08 @7wks (baby aspirin)
July08 & Aug08 - biochemical pregs
Oct08 @6wks (cyclogest)
Feb09 @6wks (cyclogest & baby aspirin)


...trying Traditional Chinese Medicine & accupuncture just now!



My Diary



Posts: 2,643

Reg: Feb 28th 2007

Location: Surrey

Children: Not yet

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19

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 11:36am

There are very few places that will give a lady a NK test for free.

Scotwife you are lucky that Dr Quenby is studying it to get it free. Most people have to pay, some miscarriage clinics may do it but very few...

Taking a biopsy of your uterus I believe only tells you about those cells and not the others (there are several). I know the Alan Beer NK assay (from a blood test) tells you all the levels, including uterus.

Good luck all.

x
TTC naturally, five miscarriages 2006-2009, Immune issues

BLONDIE'S IMMUNOLOGY DIARY

kar1

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20

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 11:38am

vanessa

yeah she does do it for free, i don;t meet the critia plus you will have it free if you agree to be part of the trial

this means that you might not get the drugs and get a placebo instead, for me i would rather pay and get the treatment that is needed
TTC 12 years

2 early losses

lots of ops and tx

both tubes removed

5th fresh short protocol
:BFP:

Tyler May born 5/5/2010 by emergency c section. Tyler is our sunshine

Posts: 176

Reg: Jul 5th 2006

Location: Surrey

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21

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 11:45am

I got my NK Cell test for free amongst many other tests but only after I had 3 m/c. I was at Mr Shehata's clinic at Epsom Hospital but only got to see him once it had been found I had elevated levels of NK Cells. I was first referred to Dr Kakumani who organised the tests and then she referred me to Mr Shehata.

I know many people though who have had to pay for the tests. I was lucky.

===================================
Me 37 DH 44

2000-2006 3 missed m/c, PCOS, endo
Feb07 high-level NKCells found - start Prednisalone
Apr07 :BFP: I[zx076]Mr Shehata


kar1

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22

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 11:57am

** IMMUNOLOGY CHATTER **

chat thread girls
TTC 12 years

2 early losses

lots of ops and tx

both tubes removed

5th fresh short protocol
:BFP:

Tyler May born 5/5/2010 by emergency c section. Tyler is our sunshine

Posts: 666

Reg: May 28th 2008

Location: Falkirk, Scotland

Children: one stepson ..& one miraculous wee boy!!!!!!!

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23

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 12:01pm

Quoted

Originally posted by kar1
vanessa

yeah she does do it for free, i don;t meet the critia plus you will have it free if you agree to be part of the trial

this means that you might not get the drugs and get a placebo instead, for me i would rather pay and get the treatment that is needed



I guess I'm lucky in that I do meet the criteria, but from the information she's given me, if I'm found to have a high cell count I get the steroid full stop and won't then be taking part in the trial!
The only instance I'll be in the trial is if I'm NOT found to have a high count - I guess this is the next stage of her research maybe?

Vanessa x


10 Losses:
Aug07@11wks
Oct07 Dec07 Mar08 & Apr08 - biochemical pregs
June08 @7wks (baby aspirin)
July08 & Aug08 - biochemical pregs
Oct08 @6wks (cyclogest)
Feb09 @6wks (cyclogest & baby aspirin)


...trying Traditional Chinese Medicine & accupuncture just now!



My Diary



kar1

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24

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 12:13pm

wow its good you don't have to pay

i do think its kinda unfair that some have to pay and some don't
TTC 12 years

2 early losses

lots of ops and tx

both tubes removed

5th fresh short protocol
:BFP:

Tyler May born 5/5/2010 by emergency c section. Tyler is our sunshine

Posts: 666

Reg: May 28th 2008

Location: Falkirk, Scotland

Children: one stepson ..& one miraculous wee boy!!!!!!!

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25

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 12:21pm

I have to agree with you there - it's such a nightmare - and then you have do do all the research yourseves too - the NHS just leave you dangling not knowing where else/what else you should be looking for.
...I've just found the Immunology Chatter section - wish I'd come across it before I posted my *brainwave*!!!!
I'll let you know how it all goes :-)
Vx


10 Losses:
Aug07@11wks
Oct07 Dec07 Mar08 & Apr08 - biochemical pregs
June08 @7wks (baby aspirin)
July08 & Aug08 - biochemical pregs
Oct08 @6wks (cyclogest)
Feb09 @6wks (cyclogest & baby aspirin)


...trying Traditional Chinese Medicine & accupuncture just now!



My Diary



  • "Glitzy" started this thread

Posts: 3,006

Reg: Oct 4th 2005

Location: Scotland

Children: Max born March 07 - thanks to frozen embryo transfer, our little miracle

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26

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 3:15pm

Just as this thread has appeared again i thought i would give you hope by saying the friend i was talking about is now 24 weekgs gone with twin boys through ivf xx


5 x ICSI b.f.n
1 x FET resulting in my gorgeous son born 2007

JENSQUI

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Posts: 7,427

Reg: Feb 26th 2007

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Children: one very special daughter

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27

Thursday, August 28th 2008, 3:20pm

that's lovely news Glitzy. If you don't mind me asking, did she have any extra treatment aimed at the killer cells?


me 38, DP 44, ttc since 2005
BFP May 07 - HB seen @ 8 wks but CRL only 7 weeks, m/c @ 9 wks
BFP Jan 08 -m/c @ 11 wks (D&C)
BFP Jun 08 - early loss
BFP Dec 08 - HB & CRL ok @ 8 wks, but sac too small, m/c @ 9 wks
BFP Apr 09 - Martha born 9th Jan 2010
BFP Feb 12 - Eliza born 13th Oct 2012

  • "Glitzy" started this thread

Posts: 3,006

Reg: Oct 4th 2005

Location: Scotland

Children: Max born March 07 - thanks to frozen embryo transfer, our little miracle

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28

Friday, August 29th 2008, 5:35pm

All she was told to do was take the baby aspirin daily for the first 12 weeks. xx


5 x ICSI b.f.n
1 x FET resulting in my gorgeous son born 2007




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